I saw this reply come in early this morning, but I had to spend some time thinking about specifics, too. I think I have 3 things that influence me re. redemption:
The first character that hit my "I want redemption"-button was Vader. I saw all 3 SW movies in one go when I was around 12. I can't really say why I liked Vader back then, but I know I did. And while I was happy there was a redemption moment at the end, I was also unhappy that he died.
Even back then, I was not happy that it was "ok, you had a redeeming moment, how nice, now die, because everything else would be too complicated and not make for a pat happy ending". I'm sure I didn't put it into these words back then, but it is what I feel now. I hate that so often redemption = death, because I would very much like to see someone have a redemptive moment and then have to keep working on it. Even if realistically it would be a "well, you did [evil things], so off to prison with you, and we'll throw away the key". I don't care, I want them to ... not get a happy end, because that's not necessarily it, but ... hm, find a place? I really don't know how exactly to put it into words.
(also: how much do I love that now, 35 years later, fandom has given me quite a number of "Vader lives" stories that give me what 12year old me wanted? Sooooo much. *g*)
Another thing that I'm sure influences this is that I'm rather flexible with characterization. Which I'm pretty sure goes back to when actual canon was hard to get (I remember watching stamp-sized .rm files of Buffy or Fushigi Yuugi with hardly readable subs - they were 25MB and had taken hours to download... and I remember tape trees for US shows). So, I'm very used to picking up both plot and characterization from fanfic (and summaries, etc).
Which means that often, I first get a whole bunch of character interpretations which narrow down over time to the one that fits/works for me most (in some cases after I've seen canon, but I do read in some fandoms where I've only every seen a handful of episodes).
Actually, one of the few fandoms where I've seen everything in recent years is Nirvana in Fire. With Guardian, I saw up to ep 15ish, before I spoiled myself for the ending and also started to read fanfic, and I stalled a long time around ep 26 or so before finishing the show. I had zero interest in Ye Zun at first, and then I read fanfic that made me interested in him, and *then* I saw him in episodes. With Untamed, I gave up and looked up some spoilers after ep 14 or so, and then I also started reading fanfic.
I only saw Thor and Iron Man 1 before diving into Marvel fandom, and while I watched Avengers, Thor Dark World, Winter Soldier and Ragnarök eventually, it was long after they came out and I had been reading fanfic (no interest in the others except Black Panther). I never saw more than 7 or 8 Merlin episodes. I never watched the last Hobbit movie. I only watched the first SW prequel (no, wait, I think I hate-watched ep 2 to mock it). I never watched more than 1,5 seasons of SG:A. I never saw most of X-Files or Highlander outside of Krycek or Methos eps. I feel like I'm doing "fannish confessions of a bad fan" *g*
... what was my point? Oh, yes: I get the feeling from what you're saying that your view of a character is much more canon-based than mine, and that it's fairly fixed, while mine is much more flexible.
The last thing that plays into my button is the disconnect I have between RL and fannish things. In RL, I would agree with your characterizations for 'grübchen and SmirkBoy, wouldn't want Seishirou to have any other ending than the canon one (or actually maybe a worse one and instead Subaru gets saved), wouldn't want Vader redeemed (captainawesome.com actually uses the "I can sense the good in him"-Vader-esque boyfriend as a thing you should run away from).
But if I'm going to be fannish, I get to apply *my* ... not rules, but my fantasy. Which, the older I get, the more boils down to "I want a world where adding more love (in many forms, so also understanding/empathy/etc) is a solution and will save people/the world".
Aside from this, I'm not even sure myself why some characters make me go "I want him redeemed", and others don't.
With Seishirou I know that I was influenced by early fanfic, which gave me the headcanon that Seishirou at least subconsciously knows he's lacking something (empathy/ability to love/all that stuff that makes people not be psychopaths), and is trying to learn it. It's just that TB!Subaru is completely unable to help because he's too innocent. But maybe an older Subaru could (well, ok, that was before the bulk of X was published where it became pretty clear that an older Subaru is way too broken for it).
I am completely 'eww' on the Seishirou-clone from Yami no Matsuei, btw.
Schuldig and Crawford I'm ok with them as they are, I just would like to have seen where they would have gone without SZ. I would have liked Snape to survive and he didn't need redemption as much as to grow up. I would have been more interested in Spike not being typically evil without a soul. I lost interest in X-Files before they killed off Krycek, and before then, I'm not sure how much redemption was needed (at least from my understanding of the meta plot, they were thinking they were doing the right thing. I think? It's been too long).
Seeing some Loki "discourse" on tumblr has given me a "run away screaming" reflex, but my base thought about him is along the lines of "very old and with superpowers, not sure normal human norms apply", plus a. *eyeroll* at him getting killed off, and b. *super-eyeroll* about him getting a show but everything after Avengers gets thrown out. Similar for Methos (but not for Kronos) - because clearly Methos can change, and I don't think Kronos can.
Ye Zun yes, after fannish influence. And in Untamed, I want it for 'grübchen since I saw him greet LXC, and then saw him have the "I'm kicking you out"-meeting with NMJ. I do think the tv show ships him with LXC quite obviously, so maybe I'd have a different opinion if I had read the book first.
(For Untamed, WWX actually also hits the button as the Yiling Patriarch, sometimes)
BTW, thinking about Methos, I just thought of another thing, because I read a metafilter post about memory. And I, same as some people in the comments, don't have any sort of narrative arc to my memories/a story about myself. I don't see myself in my memories, I see them in 1st person ego-shooter perspective. I just know I used to be past!me, and now I am no longer. I wonder if that influences how I view the redeemability of characters (because for redemption, you need change, and maybe not having a narrative-arc self makes it easier for me to believe people can change, including personality traits?)
Gnn, this reply is all over the place, sorry. I don't usually do deep-dives into why I like what I like. I just know I like it. :)
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Re: redemption through love and liking evil characters
Date: 2019-12-29 08:29 pm (UTC)The first character that hit my "I want redemption"-button was Vader. I saw all 3 SW movies in one go when I was around 12. I can't really say why I liked Vader back then, but I know I did. And while I was happy there was a redemption moment at the end, I was also unhappy that he died.
Even back then, I was not happy that it was "ok, you had a redeeming moment, how nice, now die, because everything else would be too complicated and not make for a pat happy ending". I'm sure I didn't put it into these words back then, but it is what I feel now. I hate that so often redemption = death, because I would very much like to see someone have a redemptive moment and then have to keep working on it. Even if realistically it would be a "well, you did [evil things], so off to prison with you, and we'll throw away the key". I don't care, I want them to ... not get a happy end, because that's not necessarily it, but ... hm, find a place? I really don't know how exactly to put it into words.
(also: how much do I love that now, 35 years later, fandom has given me quite a number of "Vader lives" stories that give me what 12year old me wanted? Sooooo much. *g*)
Another thing that I'm sure influences this is that I'm rather flexible with characterization. Which I'm pretty sure goes back to when actual canon was hard to get (I remember watching stamp-sized .rm files of Buffy or Fushigi Yuugi with hardly readable subs - they were 25MB and had taken hours to download... and I remember tape trees for US shows). So, I'm very used to picking up both plot and characterization from fanfic (and summaries, etc).
Which means that often, I first get a whole bunch of character interpretations which narrow down over time to the one that fits/works for me most (in some cases after I've seen canon, but I do read in some fandoms where I've only every seen a handful of episodes).
Actually, one of the few fandoms where I've seen everything in recent years is Nirvana in Fire. With Guardian, I saw up to ep 15ish, before I spoiled myself for the ending and also started to read fanfic, and I stalled a long time around ep 26 or so before finishing the show. I had zero interest in Ye Zun at first, and then I read fanfic that made me interested in him, and *then* I saw him in episodes. With Untamed, I gave up and looked up some spoilers after ep 14 or so, and then I also started reading fanfic.
I only saw Thor and Iron Man 1 before diving into Marvel fandom, and while I watched Avengers, Thor Dark World, Winter Soldier and Ragnarök eventually, it was long after they came out and I had been reading fanfic (no interest in the others except Black Panther). I never saw more than 7 or 8 Merlin episodes. I never watched the last Hobbit movie. I only watched the first SW prequel (no, wait, I think I hate-watched ep 2 to mock it). I never watched more than 1,5 seasons of SG:A. I never saw most of X-Files or Highlander outside of Krycek or Methos eps.
I feel like I'm doing "fannish confessions of a bad fan" *g*... what was my point? Oh, yes: I get the feeling from what you're saying that your view of a character is much more canon-based than mine, and that it's fairly fixed, while mine is much more flexible.
The last thing that plays into my button is the disconnect I have between RL and fannish things. In RL, I would agree with your characterizations for 'grübchen and SmirkBoy, wouldn't want Seishirou to have any other ending than the canon one (or actually maybe a worse one and instead Subaru gets saved), wouldn't want Vader redeemed (captainawesome.com actually uses the "I can sense the good in him"-Vader-esque boyfriend as a thing you should run away from).
But if I'm going to be fannish, I get to apply *my* ... not rules, but my fantasy. Which, the older I get, the more boils down to "I want a world where adding more love (in many forms, so also understanding/empathy/etc) is a solution and will save people/the world".
Aside from this, I'm not even sure myself why some characters make me go "I want him redeemed", and others don't.
With Seishirou I know that I was influenced by early fanfic, which gave me the headcanon that Seishirou at least subconsciously knows he's lacking something (empathy/ability to love/all that stuff that makes people not be psychopaths), and is trying to learn it. It's just that TB!Subaru is completely unable to help because he's too innocent. But maybe an older Subaru could (well, ok, that was before the bulk of X was published where it became pretty clear that an older Subaru is way too broken for it).
I am completely 'eww' on the Seishirou-clone from Yami no Matsuei, btw.
Schuldig and Crawford I'm ok with them as they are, I just would like to have seen where they would have gone without SZ. I would have liked Snape to survive and he didn't need redemption as much as to grow up. I would have been more interested in Spike not being typically evil without a soul. I lost interest in X-Files before they killed off Krycek, and before then, I'm not sure how much redemption was needed (at least from my understanding of the meta plot, they were thinking they were doing the right thing. I think? It's been too long).
Seeing some Loki "discourse" on tumblr has given me a "run away screaming" reflex, but my base thought about him is along the lines of "very old and with superpowers, not sure normal human norms apply", plus a. *eyeroll* at him getting killed off, and b. *super-eyeroll* about him getting a show but everything after Avengers gets thrown out. Similar for Methos (but not for Kronos) - because clearly Methos can change, and I don't think Kronos can.
Ye Zun yes, after fannish influence. And in Untamed, I want it for 'grübchen since I saw him greet LXC, and then saw him have the "I'm kicking you out"-meeting with NMJ. I do think the tv show ships him with LXC quite obviously, so maybe I'd have a different opinion if I had read the book first.
(For Untamed, WWX actually also hits the button as the Yiling Patriarch, sometimes)
BTW, thinking about Methos, I just thought of another thing, because I read a metafilter post about memory. And I, same as some people in the comments, don't have any sort of narrative arc to my memories/a story about myself. I don't see myself in my memories, I see them in 1st person ego-shooter perspective. I just know I used to be past!me, and now I am no longer. I wonder if that influences how I view the redeemability of characters (because for redemption, you need change, and maybe not having a narrative-arc self makes it easier for me to believe people can change, including personality traits?)
Gnn, this reply is all over the place, sorry. I don't usually do deep-dives into why I like what I like. I just know I like it. :)