Not yet bewitched by The Witcher

[rheasilvia]

Half an hour into playing the Witcher, all I can think about is how much I want to take this woman aside for a few words.



Lady, you are the only woman in a castle full of men. These dudes will stare at your breasts even if you actually get dressed. Don't court pneumonia and frostbite over nothing.

(Seriously, every time some guys are in her vicinity and fail to wink, grin and nudge at each other and/or stare, I'm surprised all over again.)

Also, while googling (in vain) for a mod that would get this woman into some actual clothes, I found gamers heaping derision on people who "want a medieval setting" and then complain about misogyny. In these guys' minds, misogyny belongs in fantasy video games, because realism.*

Dear historically clueless gamers, this will come as a terrible shock, but none of these games feature a medieval setting. These are fantasy settings, as you can tell by the presence of monsters, magic, gods, demons, dragons, and assorted other absurdly unrealistic elements. The presence of castles and a bunch of dudes in armor swinging around swords does not make a setting medieval. It makes it a fantasy setting with a frosting of pseudo-medieval romanticism.

When building a fantasy setting with a vague, romantic medieval ambience, there is no realism to be preserved. If misogyny exists in a fictional setting, it is there by someone's choice.

* Note that nobody seems to be complaining about the lack of realistic elements like bad teeth, dirty hair, women wearing clothes, women wearing actual medieval clothes, vermin, excrements in the streets, and other such things. Odd.

Comments

[solo]

Moreover, it sounds like they think misogyny did not exist in the middle ages?

MWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA HAAAAAAHAHAHAHA #ded

[rheasilvia]

No, no, it's the other way around! These historically-minded gamers say that *because* misogyny existed in the middle ages, it's an absolute necessity for it to exist in modern fantasy video games, too. Realism demands that female characters must wear swimsuits and be present solely in the roles of sex trophies and eye-candy.

Realism: Why modern fantasy characters of the female persuasion wear fishnet inlets in their swimsuits, while male characters never take off their pants even when they have sex.

[solo]

OIC~~~~~ Uh. That's... almost even weirder? Like, they really didn't wear swimsuits in the middle ages... >_>

The pants/sex thing sounds very Victorian, on the other hand. *g*

[rheasilvia]

(I only call it a swimsuit. It's actually this poor woman's everyday wear. *g*)

Yeah, well, the type of gamer who defends misogyny in their fantasy games (because of the super-realistic medieval setting!!!) strangely never objects to extremely skimpily dressed female characters on the grounds of realism. Just as they also never mention that they miss all those other realistic medieval touches, like the bad teeth, greasy hair and so on. As far as I can tell, it's pretty much just the misogyny that they feel needs to be preserved.

Dragons, magic and fishnet swimsuits = a-okay. Lack of misogyny = NO WAY! UNREALISTIC! WOMEN NEED TO UNDRESS AND SHUT UP!

Evidently male characters don't get to undress because - OMG! - the realistically minded male gamer is deathly afraid of having to see another dude naked. Even if the dude is only a collection of pixels. :-)

(I couldn't find a mod that puts the female character above into actual clothes, btw, but I did find several mods that removed her underwear in a later scene.)

[torch]

You notice how people actually have kind of yellow teeth in DA? There's at least two mods along the lines of WHITE TEETH OMG because that world really needs Colgate smiles, teeth that aren't pearly white are unattractive! Selective realism is very important.

I feel a deep urge to buy this woman a bra. And a nice wool sweater. (Yeah, I'm the kind of person who swapped Morrigan out of her outfit asap, and got Isabela pants.)

[rheasilvia]

Selective realism for the win! It is certainly an endlessly versatile tool in arguments. For example: White teeth are a must in Colgate ads, so any medium that shows teeth must aspire to the Colgate level of realism! (Okay, maybe I need some more practise with this particular conversational tool. *g*)

I'm the same kind of person! :-) Morrigan in particular is rather tragic in terms of clothes, isn't she. And it really doesn't fit her character at all... but I guess it was too much to ask to get bisexual characters, homosexual romance options *and* sensibly dressed female characters, all in the same game.

(BTW, I just accidentally slept with the lady in fishnets in The Witcher. I got a collectible card for it. Lovely idea. Where can my character join a dudebro kind of fraternity around here?)

[torch]

Where can my character join a dudebro kind of fraternity around here?

Isn't that what the witchers are? Of course, my understanding of the basic game set-up may be faulty.

That was one thing I really appreciated about DA2: armor didn't suddenly develop bizarre cleavage when put on a female, nor did female mages favor robes that showed thighs and hips.

[rheasilvia]

Isn't that what the witchers are?

It's certainly beginning to look that way! Maybe they'll meet up after their quest and compare their collectible sex cards. Winner gets a round of drunken high-fives and a pony.

That was one thing I really appreciated about DA2

More than can be said of DAO... though the companion outfits in DA2 could also use a bit of improvements, it was certainly a step in the right direction.

Though I did also immediately install a mod that changed the way my female Hawke ran to the way the male Hawke does. There is absolutely no reason for a hard-bitten fighter to run like a dainty princess skipping through a field of tulips.

[torch]

Have you seen the corresponding mod that makes male characters move like the female ones? Because while it looks as ridiculous on most of the guys as it does on f!Hawke, it's perfect for Carver, Maker bless his sulky little teenage heart. He was made to twist one toe in the dirt and pout.

[rheasilvia]

ROFL! I have seen that mod, and even tried it out briefly just for a laugh, but I didn't test it on Carver. What a lovely idea! I must remedy this oversight at once.

Maker bless his sulky little teenage heart. He was made to twist one toe in the dirt and pout.

So true!

I am insanely fond of Carver. (I've been sitting here delaying sending off this comment for ages because I can't think of precisely the right word to put into the sentence "He is just so [insert word here]", explaining my fondness, so I will leave you to imagine the suitable term for yourself. *g*)

[extempore]

Re: female character clothing in DA - here's what David Gaider, lead writer of DA/DA2, had to say about Isabella's outfit: http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/45198541359/i-get-the-source-of-this-complaint-even-if-i

[rheasilvia]

Hmmm. Well, I agree as far as the cleavage goes - in her case, that did always seem to fit the character, and didn't bother me. But the lack of pants was different IMO, and I slapped a mod on Isabella that added a pair of pants before I ever even played the game. I do think that the lack of pants was a male gaze issue, yeah.

And in the case of Morrigan, the situation is entirely clear. Morrigan is not a character who would realistically choose to wear what amounts to a scarf loosely tied to her chest, rather than something at least vaguely practical and warming. It's not like she runs around the swamp 24/7 hunting for men to seduce, and neither is she happily brazen and provocative like Isabella.

[extempore]

Willkommen im kosmischen Clash "Male Gamer vs. Feminismus". Die schlimmsten frauenverachtenden Kommentare ever habe ich in Gamer-Kreisen gelesen, und von tatsächlich stattfindenden entsprechenden Aktionen/Con-Panels/TV-Shows im Game-Produzenten-Umfeld fange ich ja gar nicht erst an. Es scheint für viele Männer ein Ding der Unmöglichkeit zu sein, den Spieltrieb und die eigene Freude/Befriedigung zu erhalten, während man sich mental in reifere Gefielde begibt.

[rheasilvia]

Ich habe schon viel von dieser Problematik gehört, bin aber bisher nicht in direkten Kontakt mit dem Phänomen gekommen. Es ist schon traurig, dass es scheinbar noch immer so viele Gamer gibt, die völlig traumatisiert davon sind, dass es tatsächlich Gamer gibt, die andere Dinge in ihren Spielen haben wollen als sie selbst. Und dann gehen diese Spielehersteller auch noch ansatzweise darauf ein, oh mein Gott! Das ist der Untergang des christlichen Abendlandes. Oder so ähnlich. ;-)

Andererseits - vielleicht sind es ja gar nicht so viele, sondern nur wieder die berühmte lärmende Minderheit?

[ariunderscore]

... ich liebe deinen naiven Optimismus.


(ok, es ist eine lärmende Minderheit, aber die schweigende Mehrheit an Männern und Frauen, die nichts sagen, sondern das durchgehen lässt, ist ärger)

[extempore]

Weil's mir grad untergekommen ist... das hier entspricht der Norm: http://derstandard.at/1385168657405/Xbox-One-Microsoft-warb-mit-sexistischem-Youtuber-KSI (Also, dass sich große Game-Produzenten nicht um Sexismus scheren.)

Ich bin auch nicht so sicher, dass die große Mehrheit schweigend dagegen ist (eine Gamerin berichtet z.B., wie sie selber lange Teil des männlichen Systems war: http://www.dragonsworn.net/exposing-myself-as-a-feminist-gamer/), aber immerhin kommt das Thema seit zwei, drei Jahren verstärkt auf's Tablett; in Privatblogs, aber auch in Firmenumkreisen. Trotzdem noch ein langer, langer Weg, bis man auch nur annähernd in respektvolle Gefielde kommt, und definitiv magenumdrehend, entsprechende Online-Kommentarschlachten zu lesen.

[rheasilvia]

Game-Produzenten sind ja größtenteils auch nichts anderes als Gamer, nur eben Gamer mit Business-Sinn, wie auch immer geartetem Talent und/oder Glück. Da wundert es nicht, dass ihre Einstellungen im Durchschnitt ebenso sind wie die der "klassischen" Gamer, die zumindest in der Vorstellungswelt der Produzenten (wenn auch nicht der Realität) ihre Zielgruppe sind.

David Gaider hat dazu einen sehr schönen Talk gehalten; den Link habe ich nicht zur Hand, aber du hast ihn sicher gesehen. Es ging um Romances generell, weibliche Charaktere, und um die bi- und homosexuellen Romanzen in Dragon Age. Jedenfalls spricht er auch die Problematik der geistigen Zielgruppe (Fratboys, also männlich, 15-25) an, die sich wesentlich von der tatsächlichen Zielgruppe (gemischtgeschlechtlich, Durchschnittsalter Mitte 30) unterscheidet.

Danke für die Links! Das Thema ist wirklich interessant. Und klar, Frauen sind auch Teil des Problems. Sexismus ist ein gesellschaftliches Phänomen, und Frauen sind als Teil der Gesellschaft immer auch mit Träger der entsprechenden Ansichten und/oder Verhaltensweisen.

ETA: Sexism and Sexuality in Video Games, ein Talk von David Gaider: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php